Sinuciderea unui student

[plure]

Un subiect pe care l-am gasit pe imed; din pacate nu m-am putut inloga sa pot raspunde.
http://med.pub.ro/imed/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2215&sid=6c5d51f1f3abedf3b797585312c28ac2

Se pare ca la Facultatea aia de Automatica e "moarte de om". Nu pot fi de acord cu vina facultatii pentru ceea ce s-a intamplat, dar mi se pare ca a avut un rol.

Toata lumea este consternata cand aude de sinucigasi. Fiecaruia i se pare ca el nu ar face una ca asta, (si e evident ca nu ar face-o, doar citeste aceasta stire intr-un moment in care este 100% sanatos, eventual fericit si ne-depresiv).

Insa un sinucigas face gestul final intr-un moment de adanca suferinta, cand viata este de nesuportat. Pentru el moartea este mai dulce. De aceea consider ca nu trebuie sa ii plagem neaparat de mila; ii e mai bine acolo unde a plecat de bunavoie.

Insa dramatic este faptul ca acea suferinta de nesuportat, din care a ales calea cea mai usoara, era de fapt un moment trecator, un moment pe care daca l-ar fi depasit, poate nu s-ar fi repetat. Intr-un astfel de moment este important ajutorul profesional. Prezenta unui cabinet psihologic in Regie este ceea ce ar putea impiedica astfel de tragedii.

Trebuie sa ii multumim lui Dumnezeu ca suntem suficient de sanatosi psihic (pentru moment cel putin) ca sa nu recurgem la un astfel de gest. Si sa ne rugam ca, daca vreodata vom ajunge atat de departe, sa primim ajutor.

[manolo]

hmm. stirea si al doilea mesaj, cel mai consistent, au aparut si pe site-ul Forumului Academic Roman.

intr-adevar, daca e asa, faptul ca nu e singurul caz de la Automatica (chiar daca se contabilizeaza si tentativele) e cel putin de natura sa ridice niste intrebari.

citeam undeva ca medicii sunt de nush cate ori mai dispusi la sinucidere decat celelalte profesii. asa o fi?

oricum, simptomatica afirmatia unuia dintre cei care au postat acolo, potrivit careia e preferabil sa nu te duci singuri, ci sa "iei" cu tine si pe cel care te-a adus in situatia respectiva.

oricum, e pacat ca un om tanar a ales aceasta solutie finala. bunica mea imi spunea ca din orice iesi, cu exceptia mortii...

[plure]

Am inteles ca in State se foloseste mult Valium de catre medici. E adevarat, Cerbe? Cand eram Erasmus in Franta am lucrat cu o tipa fff tare; faceam pediatrie la urgente. Este endocrinolog pediatru, cam la 45 de ani si fff desteapta. Mi-a spus ca lua Xanax de 25 mg, 3 pe zi. Genul de femeie-barbat, uscata, inalta si super competenta, in plus mereu bine dispusa. N-as fi banuit ca era anxioasa.

[A CERB]

din cauza deficitului de psihiatri, medicii de familie ajung sa trateze o gramada de depresii si anxietati( in toate formele lor, inclusiv panic). eu am cativa( putini, ce-i drept) pe care ii tratez de bipolar II. ma feresc de depresii majore si  psihoze in general.

valium evident ca nu e de prima linie si NU ESTE ANTIDEPRESIV. SSRI sunt de prima intentie( in general le prescrii in functie de efectele secundare) desi triciclicele sunt mai eficiente( dar sunt mai prost tolerate si cu risc de noncompliance)

dintre benzo, ideal este xanax pentru ca e short acting, il iei cand ai criza de anxietate. tot din cauza short half life are si cel mai mare potential de dependenta. eu prefer lorazepam, care actioneaza cam 6-8 ore.

pe drogati ii depistezi usor, aia au tot felul de efecte secundare la ssri sau iti spun aceeasi magarie" i didn't like the way it made me feel". pe astia in general ii trimiti la psihiatru, ca si pe cei de mai sus, cu depresia majora.

cu sinucigasii, e un pic mai dificil, toti se feresc de ei ca dracu de tamaie, eu personal refuz sa internez overdoses cu scop suicid, pentru ca nu am psihiatru la spitalul unde sunt si nu-mi convine riscul. intotdeauna o sa dea vina pe doctor sau pe medicament, mai nou la SSRI scrie pe PI( package insert) ca pot creste riscul de suicid, asa ca cum ai da-o tot nu e bine.

[tapirul]

era o discutie cu riscul asta de suicid la SSRI, se pare ca studiile facut erau cam lousy. D'aia il intrebai pe cetateanu turmentat.
mai mult sau mai putin ontopic, cervidu, de diagnostica cine ii diagnosticheaza pe bipolarii tai? Si, cu bipolarii 1 ce faci?

[doina]

Va rog sa ma scuzati ca intru cumva pe nepusa masa in discutie, si in plus "off topic"; este prima data cind am reusit sa accesez din nou imed/forum prin linkul de mai sus, dupa citeva luni; merge acum in mod consistent sau este doar un "fluke"?

Re. sinuciderea studentului...presupun ca serviciile de sanatate mintala accesibile studentilor si educatia re. depresie/boli afective, etc. nu sint inca f. dezvoltate; mai este si stigma sociala, care impiedica in unele cazuri ca cineva sa "ceara ajutor" (daca mai are "puterea" sau "vointa", in conditia respectiva, sa caute ajutorul). Si in SUA "popularizarea" faptului ca studentii nu au nici aici access foarte usor/util la servicii de sanatate mintala a fost destul de recenta, in urma unor reportaje in presa despre citeva sinucideri printre studenti aflati pe mai multe campusuri universitare; NYU are in special o "faima" recenta proasta in acest sens.

De fapt, chiar cu access, este, IMHO, greu sa previi sau sa depistezi/prevezi uneori in timp util un potential suicid. Virsta intre 18-25 ani este in mod deosebit mai vulnerabila, deoarece este virsta la care, statistic, pot apare uneori primele semne ale unor tulburari psihiatrice majore viitoare; plus mai exista riscul legat de stresul tranzitiei de la conditia de elev la student, riscul dezamagirilor romantice/profesionale/educationale, riscul drogurilor/ETOH, etc. Dar bineinteles, statisticile "reci" nu aduc nici un comfort si nu "incalzesc" pe nimeni. Toti cei care ramin in urma (colegi, familia) se vor simti cumva vinovati, isi vor pune intrebari re. "daca cumva am fi putut preveni..."; este natural si omenesc.

[plure]

Draga Cerbe, nu te pot lasa sa crezi ca am crezut ca Valium este antidepresiv, intrucat stiu ca este Diazepam.

Ma refeream la consumul de bezodiazepine printre doctori. De aceea iti si povesteam de femeia aia f competenta dar care lua Xanax.

Personal nu as prescrie benzos decat in cure f scurte, si la oameni surmenati, etc care au nevoie sa doarma mai bine o perioada spre a se reface.

Ma refeream la anxietatea in randul doctorilor.

Doina: Imed merge din afara cred numai scriind adresa cum o vezi in linkul respectiv, si atunci merge mereu.

[plure]

PS Oricum si in tratamentul anxietatii isi au SSRI un rol f important in cure de peste 6 luni, iar benzo eventual la inceputul acestei cure 2-3 saptamani spre a atenua efectele adverse ale SSRI (amplificarea anxietatii in primele 2-3 saptamani).

Eu insami sunt cateodata anxioasa mai ales in situatia dificila de inceput in care sunt acum, insa nu as vrea sa iau Xanax sau mai stiu eu ce, iar de SSRI mi-e teama ca mi-ar scade puterea de concentrare (nici nu stiu daca e asa).

[A CERB]

da, bre, nu am krezut ca nu stii ce e aia valium.

drug abuse e o problema printre doctori, si te tot intreaba peste tot daca iei buline sau daca ai vreun impairment. (pe de alta parte, veti fi socati sa stiti cati colegi se dopeaza in facultate cu cafeina, distonocalm, diazepane, extraverale sau mai stiu si eu ce)

nu e nimic rau in uzul ocazional de benzos. eu personal sunt un dur, cand am un stress il dau la altii, nu iau buline. am incercat o data effexor, mi-a placut cum m-am simtit, dar m-a facut inapropriate( chestie care exista oricum ca baseline) asa ca am oprit. SSRI nu scad puterea de concentrare, e chiar opusul, daca esti all over the place din cauza de anxietati te ajuta sa te focusezi. daca ai attention deficit( ramas din copilarie si nu cauzat de anxietate) poti adauga Straterra, desi mie personal nu-mi place.

tapiru, poti folosi MDQ pentru screening, dupa care e trial and error. bipolarii tip I( aia psihotici) in general vine deja diagnosticati.

revenind la intrebarea topikului, evident ca vor fi sinucigasi indiferent de nivelul de stress, sa dai vina numai pe boii de la fakultate e simplist. trebuie educata populatia pe ansamblu, la treaba asta ajuta familia si prietenii, nu vin aia neaparat la tine si spun " doctore, sunt deprimat de nu mai pot". de asemenea, ajuta ideea de medic de familie, care te cunoaste si te mai intreaba si de mood cand mergi la el cu o raceala, pentru ca, din cauza stigmei, e mult mai usor sa accepti antidepresive de la primary care decat de la psihiatru.

[plure]

La treaba cu tulburarea de concentrare din cauza anxietatii m-ai nimerit (desi nu e chiar atat de grav). Si la aia cu ADHD, cred. In copilarie imi uitam cravata zilnic acasa, iar gumele de sters dispareau la fel de des. Au fost ai mei nevoiti sa imi taie fiecare guma in vreo 20 de bucati, ca sa le pot pierde pe rand. Era destul de greu sa stergi cu astfel de bucatele, iar colegii se uitau ca la altceva. Iar temele le uitam cu desavarsire pana la 11 noaptea cand imi aduceam aminte de ele, si incepeam sa ma smiorcai pe langa mama. Sa vezi stersaturi si pete de cerneala, ajunsese mama specialista in sters cu lama si lipit foile cu Aracet intre ele (daca greseam ceva lipeam 2 foi -ca nu era voie parca sa le rupi). Uitam intotdeauna borcanul pentru apa pt desen iar bentitele dispareau ca prin farmec.
Ma gandesc acum ce factor educativ a fost scoala.

In facultate ma capiau cursurile pe care trebuia sa le scrii dupa dictare; mi-era lene sa tin minte o fraza de la dictare pana la scriere. Cursurile mele sunt probabil printre cele mai proaste pe care le-am vazut. Uneori ma opream si lasam cate 1/2 de pagina libera. In schimb mi-a placut sa citesc din carti straine, cu cat mai mult cu atat mai bine. Pacat ca nu am inteles atunci importanta de a si invata foarte bine ceva (cum ar fi un curs bun sau cartile astea pt Stepuri). Noroc cu materii la care te fortau sa inveti bine cum ar fi farmaco.

[A CERB]

mda, stiu ce zici cu deficitu. l-am avut toata kopilaria mea, da' am krezut mereu ca era pentru ca eram eu genial si profii neste idioti.

in legatura cu sinucigasii, uite un articol din ziaru' de azi, in kare jurnalistu'( specia liberalus genu' imbecilus) lasa deoparte bunul simt si da cu bata in doktori si in sistem intr-un stil caracteristic new york times si plin de obiectivitate

( pentru cei neinitiati, mentiunea cu taierea fondurilor de la medicaid e o duma liberala populista-din moment ce majoritatea psihiatrilor nu primesc medicaid pentru ca refuza sa fie platiti peanuts pentru responsabilitati imense- problema e in alta parte; de asemenea, lipseste cu desavarsire opinia alora in care se arunca ku kakat, desi rekunosc ca nu sunt date nume)

luati si va minunati cum de nu vor doktorii sa vada sinucigasi intr-un climat foarte prietenos.


February 06, 2005  
One mother's pain

Son's death shows problems with system, woman says


By Scott Finn
Staff writer  

FAIRMONT — If any mother could prevent her son from committing suicide, it should have been Diana Preston.

She is well educated. She has good insurance. She used to work at the state Department of Health and Human Resources, so she understands the system.

But all that was not enough. In October 2003, Neil Preston shot himself in the head in front of his father's Morgantown home.

Diana Preston says her experience reveals what is wrong with how mental illness is treated in West Virginia.

Every time she sought help, she found roadblocks in her path. Neil's different doctors never seemed to talk to one another. They threw a witch's brew of different drugs at him.

When he had a mental breakdown and needed to go to the psychiatric hospital, the state's mental-hygiene laws forced her to testify against her son. Even then, the mental-health professionals didn't listen to her and denied her request, she said.

"I kept screaming for help. When you have a sick child, you call everyone for help," she said. "It keeps me awake at night, asking myself, what else could I have done?"

In the last five years, stories such as Preston's have become more common in West Virginia. A record 290 state residents killed themselves in 2001, and a near-record 277 in 2002, the most recent year for which data is available. The state has the fifth highest suicide rate in the nation.

Also, in the last four years, the number of people being committed to state psychiatric hospitals jumped 45 percent. That puts pressure on mental hygiene commissioners to keep people such as Neil out of the hospital, even when they need it, Preston said.

One possible cause of these problems: Four years ago, mistakes by state officials and mental-health providers led to a 40 percent reduction in the state's largest source of mental-health funding, the federal Medicaid program, according to a Sunday Gazette-Mail investigation.

Diana Preston said bureaucratic incompetence and an antiquated system for committing people to mental hospitals contributed to her son's death.

But Neil Preston also was killed by the stigma that still surrounds mental illness, she said.

Stigma made Neil stop taking his medication when he went to college, because he didn't want his roommates to think he was sick. Stigma led some of his relatives to blame Neil or Diana for his troubles in school and thoughts of suicide.

"The attitude that you just need to grow up, or it's not really an illness and you don't need to take medication — that's what kept him from getting help," she said.

'People loved Neil'

Neil was an honor student, a member of the Nitro High School basketball team and an attentive son with a dry sense of humor, Preston said.

His teachers said he was a joy in class. He had lots of friends. As a teenager, he started his own business, mowing lawns throughout the neighborhood.

"You have to understand, people loved Neil," she said. "He was slow to anger and quick to forgive. He never said a bad word about anyone."

Then, at 15, the panic attacks started. He was diagnosed with major depressive disorder and anxiety disorder. Many people become depressed, but someone with Neil's disorder experiences extreme and prolonged bouts of depression.

As long as he lived at home, he seemed to deal with his depression pretty well, Preston said. He started cognitive therapy, which teaches depressed people how to stop their spiral of negative thoughts. He also took medication that helped control his worst symptoms.

In August 2001, he went to college at West Virginia University. He was feeling better, he said, so he stopped going to therapy and no longer took his medication.

Also, he was afraid his roommates would find out he was taking drugs for depression, Preston said.

That first semester, he took a heavy course load: two chemistry classes, two biology classes, two labs, calculus and communications. As his depression returned, he found it difficult to keep up.

The next semester, he was placed on academic probation for his poor grades. Neil was devastated and embarrassed, and in March 2002 he withdrew from college and came home.

Back in Charleston, he got a job at National Travel. He did so well, they wanted to promote him. But he thought he was a failure at work, she said.

In fall 2002, Neil enrolled at Fairmont State. Preston moved to a townhouse in Bridgeport, in part to be closer to where her son went to school.

A week before school started, he had another panic attack. Preston took him to United Hospital Center in Clarksburg, where he spent six days in the psychiatric ward.

He doctors prescribed three drugs, one he had never tried before, and released him. But the drugs made him jittery, she said, and unable to sleep.

She brought him for outpatient treatment at a Fairmont clinic operated by United Summit Center. The doctor there prescribed three entirely different medications. Preston questioned the medication changes, but she said the doctor didn't listen.

Soon, Neil began to black out. Once, he passed out while making dinner and cut his head on the stove, she said.

He started to burn the inside of his arm and the tips of his fingers with cigarettes. The physical pain relieved the pressure he felt inside, he said.

He started to talk about hurting himself. His paranoia grew worse. He thought his psychology professor was talking about him every time the professor described a mental illness.

Then, his cousin invited him to move out to Kansas and live with his family. Neil was excited for the first time in months, Preston said. She was worried, but knew she would have to let him go.

In April 2003, he left for Wichita. Soon after he arrived, he stopped taking his medication again, because he didn't want his cousin to know.

"The men in my family, young and old, said he should get away from mom," she said. "They said psychiatrists, meds make you sick."

'Something's wrong'

Neil returned to West Virginia in August. He drove through the night to reach a family reunion near Morgantown.

He was not himself, Preston said. He wasn't talking to anyone. He drank several beers and tried to go to sleep.

Around 10 p.m., a relative accidentally woke him up. They began to argue, and then threw punches at each other.

It took two men to pull Neil away. He was screaming at the top of his lungs. He threatened to kill someone. He said he wanted to die. He quoted Nietzsche and other philosophers he had read and made wild accusations about family members, Preston said.

For three hours, they held him down, but Neil showed no sign of calming down.

They called the police. Two sheriff's deputies put him in an ambulance and took him to the emergency room of Ruby Memorial Hospital in Morgantown.

Shortly before midnight, the emergency room doctor evaluated Neil. The doctor said Neil was suicidal and put him on a 24-hour watch, according to emergency room records Preston later obtained.

At this point, most states would allow some sort of temporary treatment, say 48 hours, before holding a hearing to determine if Neil needed to be committed to a state psychiatric hospital.

But West Virginia requires a full mental-hygiene hearing before any real treatment can begin. Neil's hearing was scheduled at 3 p.m., more than 17 hours after the original episode.

As Neil waited for the hearing, he became increasingly angry at her for calling the police, Preston said.

At the hearing, Neil was given a defense lawyer. Another lawyer, a mental-hygiene commissioner, was brought in to make the final decision about committing Neil.

But no one represents families at the hearing. They must testify alone against their loved ones, who often do not want to go to the psychiatric hospital.

A generation ago, people spent entire lifetimes in mental institutions. But almost no one does today. The state's two mental hospitals usually keep people for only a couple of weeks, usually less. That's partly because of a change in philosophy, and partly because the state's two psychiatric hospitals are overcrowded, which puts pressure on doctors to release patients, mental-health advocates say.

Before the hearing, a psychiatrist who had never met Neil interviewed him for a few minutes, Preston said. To her knowledge, the psychiatrist did not see his previous medical records or talk with the emergency room doctor who treated Neil, she said.

The psychiatrist said Neil was not a threat to himself or others and recommended outpatient therapy. The mental-hygiene commissioner, who is supposed to be an impartial judge, told Preston several times she should drop her petition. The commissioner said having her son committed could hurt his future job prospects, Preston said.

Preston told them she knew her son and something was terribly wrong.

But Neil was calm now. He said he didn't need help. The mental-hygiene commissioner agreed with the psychiatrist and recommended outpatient treatment.

Over the next two months, Neil went to Chestnut Ridge in Morgantown three times for treatment, according to his medical records. The WVU affiliate prescribed yet another new medication for Neil.

Jim Stevenson, department chairman of behavioral medicine and psychiatry at Chestnut Ridge, said federal privacy regulations prohibit Chestnut Ridge officials from even confirming if a patient is at the facility.

That can cause a problem when the parents of adult children try to get information about their son or daughter, he said.

Meanwhile, Neil continued to get worse, Preston said. He heard his own voice echoing in head. He couldn't sleep.

He said he couldn't keep a thought in his head. He wanted a brain scan, like an MRI or CAT scan. "Something's wrong with my brain," he said.

Preston said she had never seen Neil so frightened.

"I told him, 'we're going to get you help,'" she said. "His eyes were so dark. He was hurting so bad. I could see the darkness coming."

On Sept. 19, Preston called Chestnut Ridge to ask for an emergency appointment, she said. She said she was told his clinical social worker was on vacation. No one else could see him.

The woman on the phone scheduled an appointment for Oct. 7. She said Preston could take Neil to the emergency room if he was in danger, according to Preston.

"There's no way we were going to drag Neil back to the emergency room and go through the mental-hygiene process again," she said.

On Sept. 28, Preston called Chestnut Ridge again, she said. "I was frantic by now. I was begging for help," she said.

On Sept. 30, his therapist called back. According to Preston, she again asked for an immediate appointment, but was told she had to wait until Oct. 7.

That night, Neil said he was going to stay the night at his father's house in Morgantown. That was the last she heard from him.

The next morning, two schoolchildren walking to school found Neil's body, next to his car at his father's house. He had shot himself in the head with a handgun.

Later that day, Diana Preston called Chestnut Ridge.

"Cancel the appointment," she remembers saying in a flat voice. "Neil has died."

'Listen to me'

Diana Preston isn't the type of person to give up easily. After Neil died, she decided to try to do something to prevent others from suffering her pain.

In April, she joined with two other mothers of mentally ill children to hold an observance at Riverfront Park in Morgantown. They persuaded then-Gov. Bob Wise to declare May mental-health month.

In May, she told her story at a conference on youth suicide in Charleston. In September, she testified to a legislative committee that is looking into the rising suicide rate among the state's youth.

In 2002, a record 22 West Virginians under the age of 20 killed themselves, according to the state Bureau of Public Health. The average during the previous decade was just 14 per year.

At the legislative hearing, Preston testified beside Cathy Yura, director of WVU's counseling center. Yura would like to see mental health integrated into physical wellness centers at colleges statewide. For example, Neil often worked out at WVU's new wellness center, and might have felt more comfortable meeting a mental-health counselor there, Preston said.

Preston also supports a change in the law that allows people like her son to receive emergency treatment for 48 hours before they have a full-blown mental-hygiene hearing. A bill before the state Legislature this year would allow that change.

But most of all, she wants mental-health professionals to listen to people like her, the family members of people with mental illness, even when those people are adults.

"If I tell you it's serious and I'm scared and he's scared, listen to me. Don't give me an appointment 10 days later when the therapist gets back from vacation," she said.

The research for this series was completed with support from the Journalism Fellowships in Child and Family Policy program at the University of Maryland's Philip Merrill College of Journalism.

To contact staff writer Scott Finn, use e-mail or call 357-4323.


Click to Search for Related Stories in our Library  
Talk Back: [write to the editor] [discuss in the forum]

[von Manteuffel]

am incercat o data effexor, mi-a placut cum m-am simtit, dar m-a facut inapropriate

asta ai simtit tu sau ti-a spus Iulia?

[A CERB]

nu bre, spuneam chestii aiurea. de ex., spuneam pacietilor sa nu mai fumeze si incepeau" don't smoke, don't drink, dont eat... you're no fun, doc" la care-i intrebam" have you tried sex?"

[laurad]

Daca vrei sa mai incerci, poti sa te intorci in tara, ca aici limbajul asta, mai ales printre chirurgi , e de bine, iti aduce popularitate, cica ia uite ce ''popular'' e domdoctor, a glumit cu mine, ia sa-i dau mai mult....sau variante pe aceeasi tema.

Voi incerca sa nu mai fiu off topic.

[A CERB]

Daca vrei sa mai incerci, poti sa te intorci in tara

thanx, but no thanx.

ca aici limbajul asta, mai ales printre chirurgi , e de bine, iti aduce popularitate, cica ia uite ce ''popular'' e domdoctor, a glumit cu mine, ia sa-i dau mai mult....

pai, io tokmai d-aia am plekat, mi-era prea jena sa iau si nu vroiam sa mor de foame.

Voi incerca sa nu mai fiu off topic

hate to dissapoint you, but you're not on imed. there is NO off topik.

[tapirul]

hate to dissapoint you, but you're not on imed. there is NO off topik.

cu exceptia lu' coltzu conservatorului, that is. :D

[A CERB]

da, ku esceptia amintita.

[von Manteuffel]

pai, io tokmai d-aia am plekat, mi-era prea jena sa iau si nu vroiam sa mor de foame.

mah da' sa-mi iei zacusca din frigider nu ti-era jena?

[A CERB]

zarurile au fost arunkate

[arima]

iar sinucidere? dar ce aveti fratilor? nu aveti altceva mai bun de facut decat sa va sinucideti? ce a rezolvat cu asta? intrebarea pe care vreau eu sa v-o pun suna cam asa: suicidul este un act de curaj sau este o dovada de lasitate ? ca eu inca nu m-am lamurit. :?:

[tapirul]

cioran ar spune ca suicidul este supremul act de curaj, act care ne diferentiaza pe noi oamenii de restul animalelor.

parerea mea personala este ca e un act de lasitate. Sau, mai degraba, supremul act de egocentrism. Genul "adio, lume rea, ma duc, si ma doare in kur de suferintele altora". NU in toate cazurile, evident.

[Tez]

Depinde de circumstante;un act sinucigas facut cu un scop precis si in beneficiul altora e un act de curaj;tot o sclipire de curaj intr-o bezna de lasitate iti trebuie pentru a depasi instinctul de conservare;in majoritatea cazurilor totusi cred ca e vorba de lasitate;

lasitate e atunci cand nu te sinucizi pentru ca ti-e frica sa mori in aceeasi masura in care e si in situatia in care te sinucizi pentru ca te-ai saturat sa traiesti(sau ai impresia ca...)

[Qvadratus]

...ca eu inca nu m-am lamurit. ...

Pai .............  :drugs:

[elfstone]

NU pricep... fireste, unele sinucideri or fi chibzuite indelung, rational, fara cine stie ce tulburari suprapuse, nici macar reactive... . Ca sa zic asa sinucideri "la rece" si neprovocate. Despre astea, da, putem sa discutam in termeni de lasitate vs. curaj, etc. Dar ce te faci cu majoritatea?... .

[rocsa]

Unul din fratii Minovici utiliza strangularea pt a obtine orgasmul. Pana intr- zi cand i-a placut prea mult si s-a sinucis orgasmic sau in fine, accident la locu de munca.
Si de la noi din faculta s-a sinucis un student din anu 5, acu vreo luna.
M-a impresionat foarte tare cazul unei tipe din anul 6, facea parte din liga studentilor si avea din todeauna bursa. S-a sinucis acu vreo 2 ani, inainte de sarbatorile de iarna. In spatele unui bloc din Militari, si-a taiat femurala cu un ciob de sticla pe care l-a gasit la fata locului.

[von Manteuffel]

facea parte din liga studentilor si avea din todeauna bursa

si-o fi dat seama ce a facut...

[originaltup]

cioran ar spune ca suicidul este supremul act de curaj

si el era las?

poate cel mai bun eseu pe tema asta e Mitul lui Sisif de Camus. Vi-l recomand.

[A CERB]

tot pe tema asta si a propos de ciob, nu mai stiu care interbelic spunea  ca e lipsit de stil sa te arunci in fata unui ford si nu in fata unui bugatti. ( citeam asta pe vremea lui ceashka si nu pricepeam ce are ala ku fordu)

[rocsa]

facea parte din liga studentilor si avea din todeauna bursa

si-o fi dat seama ce a facut...

se certase cu parintii.
Si plimba mutzufanu ca rugineste lantzu.

[arima]

nu am nevoie de droguri.
ti se pare o intrebare simpla? ca mie nu. asemeni multor persoane de pe lumea asta am fost tentata la un moment dat sa fac asa ceva. ceva m-a oprit. si nu stiu dc lasitatea sau curajul de a trai mai departe in jungla asta care se numeste societate. deci? ce este, qvadratus? lasitate sau curaj? raspunde, nu te mai fofila! :user:

[von Manteuffel]

von Manteuffel wrote:
Quote:
facea parte din liga studentilor si avea din todeauna bursa

si-o fi dat seama ce a facut...
se certase cu parintii.
Si plimba mutzufanu ca rugineste lantzu

.
multumesc de invitatie. eu raman totusi la explicatia mea.

[doina]

Intreb mai mult din grija: care a fost "raspunsul" Ligii Studentilor sau al Facultatii, pe vremea aceea, daca a existat unul? Ce se intimpla concret, "pe teren", cind un student se sinucide (d.p.d.v. "oficial")? Exista un raspuns organizat, chiar si temporar, ad hoc, de educatie sau suport pt. ceilalti studenti? Credeti ca ar fi util un asemenea raspuns? Ce ar fi mai util de "implementat", ca sa poata fi folositor si pt. alti studenti?

Intreb deoarece au fost si in SUA, periodic, din cind in cind, anumite valuri de "dezbatere" jurnalistica despre "responsabilitatea" pe care o au Colegiile/Universitatile fata de studentii care au nevoie de servicii de sanatate mintala si/sau criza, sau chiar fata de bunastarea studentilor, in general, ca functionind pe rol "in loco parentis". (Exista bineinteles multe sinucideri care nu ajung sa fie dezbatute in presa.) Cazurile mai "celebre" (popularizate) au existat la unele universitati Ivy League sau, mai recent, la NYU, in care exista un "camin" aparte care a capatat o reputatie "proasta" anume re. numarul de sinucideri in ultimii ani. Desi acum exista un raspuns educational mai accentuat decit in trecut, totusi problema accesului la servicii de sanatate mintala este inca destul de greu de rezolvat (chiar si intr-un oras ca NYC, unde nr. de psihologi/psihiatri/therapists, etc. este poate cel mai ridicat decit oriunde alta parte.) Studentii au dificultati de access deoarece multe din asigurari (daca ei sint pe asigurarea parintilor) nu acopera servicii de sanatate mintala, sau chiar multe din cabinete nu accepta chiar si acele asigurari, deci este vorba de $$. Nu toate universitatile au cabinete de sanatate mintala afiliate (subventionate de Universitate), si desi numarul lor poate a crescut in ultima vreme (si datorita "valurilor" periodice din presa), oferta este totusi mai mica decit "cererea". Din ce in ce mai mult, studentii care se prezinta pt. "ajutor" vin cu probleme psihiatrice, se pare, din ce in ce mai complicate. Nr. studentilor care iau in mod regulat medicamente psihotropice este chiar mare. Chiar, printre studentii medicinisti, se discuta acum un timp pe SDN, ca aprox. 1/4 sau chiar mai mult din studenti iau medicamente antidepresive si anxiolitice in timpul facultatii. Dar nu este vorba numai de accesul (larg, aici mai ales, fata de alte interventii!) la tratament medicamentos, bineinteles. Este si problema stigmei si a retinerii in cautarea de ajutor, care trebuie adresata intr-un anumit fel (educational). Si problema daca suicidul trebuie inteles si descris de la bun inceput, in mod direct prin prisma unui "model" de sanatate publica, cu solutii aferente (preventive, mai ales.)

Este vorba deci, in modelul sanatatii publice, daca cumva exista o initiativa pt. un program public de preventie, si educatie, si , chiar daca ea ar exista, daca ar putea fi demonstrabil utila si implementabila.

Re. daca exista o "moralitate" sau nu in ceea ce priveste sinuciderea, eu nu ma pricep, ba chiar indraznesc sa spun ca acest mod de a pune problema (in mod larg) chiar poate duce la o mai mare "confuzie", si poate chiar intirzia implementarea unor solutii practice, viabile. De foarte multa vreme, studiul academic al "suicidului" in general mi s-a parut cumva cam prea "multidisciplinar" (conexiuni antropologice, sociologice, religioase, filozofice, medicale, psihologice, etc.), si, ca de obicei, "copilul cu prea multe mame...risca sa devina orfan". Nu neg ca este interesant d.p.d.v. "teoretic" sau academic, dar, in ultima instanta, ce rost are sa intelegi descrierea problemei sau sa stabilesti o nosologie anume, daca nu ai solutii concrete? Pe de alta parte, insa, ratele de suicid se pare ca sint destul de stabile pe diverse arii geografice, pe diverse virste si sexe si straturi sociale, de-a lungul multor ani (cel putin daca ne luam dupa statisticile prezente), deci nu stiu daca anumite programe publice sau sisteme de sanatate anumit implementate au reusit sau au sansa sa reuseasca sa schimbe "in bine" aceste numere pe termen lung. Poate ca ar fi mai bine de cautat articole anume, re. aceasta problema, inainte sa mai speculez aiurea, fara a ma baza pe ceva concret. Este clar, totusi, ca virsta studentiei este o virsta vulnerabila, oriunde in lume.

Bineinteles, acestea sint doar speculatii/ginduri generale personale...am raspuns mai mult din grija, citind aici reverberatiile virtuale ale tragicului eveniment specific recent.

[Qvadratus]

...deci? ce este, qvadratus? lasitate sau curaj? raspunde, nu te mai fofila!

Prefer sa ma arunc pe fereastra decit sa raspund.....


P.S. Eu sugeram ca am nevoie de medicamente, dar ma rog, motivul pentru care aveam nevoie de asa ceva, poate nu e asa de vizibil pentru tine... 8)

P.P.S. Daca vrei parerile mele in legatura cu problema in cauza, uite, du-te  aici la cele 2 pagini.

[cnicu]

Nu a existat nici un raspuns. Nu a existat nici un grup de lucru care sa cerceteze (poate doar politia ca sa vada daca a fost sinucidere si nu crima). Nu se fac sedinte de coniliere sau tratamente medicamentoase. In ziare stirea a aparut probabil pe pagina 7 din 8 pagini de ziar din ziua respectiva si nu mai mult de 1-2 zile. Cred ca nici la Tv nu s-a prea  discutat prea mult.
De ce? Pai nu intereseaza pe nimeni... Oamenii care formeaza societatea romaneasca la acest moment sint pasivi, abrutizati de situatia materiala, asa ca evenimente dure ca o sinucidere au drept scop doar cresterea ratingului la emisiunile de stiri si nu au o urmare hai sa zic "profilactica", ceva care sa impiedice urmatorul sinicigas.

[doina]

re. qvadratus sed on Imed

sunt om si nimic din ce e omenesc nu mi-e strain

Qvadratus, acest citat din Terentiu si mie mi-a fost mereu drag!

Multumesc ca mi-ai si ne-ai adus aminte de el!  :thumbsup:

re. "nonraspuns"...e trist, dar poate nu este de mirare. Multe din initiativele re. imbunatatirea accesului la tratament pt. studenti (in particular), la ridicarea pragului de responsabilitate (chiar si indirecta) al universitatilor fata de studentii pe care ii au "in grija", din ultima vreme, in SUA au fost totusi, se pare, originate destul de mult din "grassroots initiative level", venind din partea parintilor si a studentilor (ajutate poate si de citeva "procese legale" de oarecare anvergura!), nu neaparat din partea initiala a Universitatilor sau a mediului academic in general. Nu zic ca nu exista si anumite foruri academice reputabile care lucreaza si cerceteaza problema suicidului in mod sistematic si constiincios...dar de la studii pina la "implementare" directa, ca nivel de "policy" pe teren, este cale lunga...si bineinteles ca este vorba de fonduri! (Deci, imi zic eu,  dincolo de emotii, daca aici e problema de fonduri, nici nu vreau sa ma gindesc cu ce probleme mari se confrunta mediul academic si aspectul mediului social in RO in momentul de fata.)

(Simt nevoia sa precizez inca o data: va rog sa nu aveti impresia ca eu doresc sa compar, in mod ridicol si nejustificat, un sistem cu altul, sau sa creez "flame" wars. Eu doar doresc sa comentez. Imi suprapun si eu perceptiile personale peste alte comentarii. Ma uit si eu, ca intr-o oglinda, in acest forum si observ mereu ca se ridica aceleasi dileme si conflicte pe care le-am constatat si printre colegii mei din SUA. Si, bineinteles, din aspiratii naive, tot ma intreb si eu, ca si alti medici colegi, mai mult sau mai putin retoric, poate, cum ar fi mai bine, ce am putea face, si chiar daca in fond avem aceasta putere, ca profesionisti, medici, sau medici in devenire, sa influentam ceva la nivel de "policy". Spun naiv, deoarece, in general, observ, ca medicii, ca profesie, nu prea au multa "influenta" societala sau despre "policies" in general., mai pe nicaieri. Cel mult, medicii pot sa isi faca meseria in mod constiincios, pt. fiecare caz/pacient in parte. Cei din mediul academic, la rindul lor, se lupta cu alte probleme in momentul de fata incit sa mai aiba si treburi de "policy". Guvernul bineinteles nu are timp de asemenea lucruri "minore" fata de alte "focuri" care trebuie atitate sau stinse. Cel mult poate sa constate o stare de fapt, pe ici pe colo, si sa mai dea niste fonduri pt. studierea "problemei" in continuare, poate.)

De aceea poate ca este bine sa incercam, pe cit putem, sa avem grija unii de altii, ca medici colegi (cu atit mai greu cu cit lupta pt. turf este mai apriga!). Sa nu uitam ca insasi profesia de medic este considerata o profesie destul de stresanta si cu rate suicidare (mai ales pe unele specialitati, si cu anumite diferente pe sexe) mai mari decit ratele populatiei generale. Iar stigma re. "treatment seeking" printre medici insisi este chiar mult mai ridicata deci la nivelul populatiei generale.

Scuze pt. "long rant"! (incerc sa nu mai cad in aceasta capcana, dar...voi sinteti de vina...ca ma "provocati"! Macar sa poata fi utile, in orice fel, fie si doar pt. a atrage mai multi vizitatori pe Vizuina  :wink: aceste solilocvii retorice!)

[Qvadratus]

Scuze pt. "long rant"!

Pai daca tu esti vorba lunga, de mine ce sa mai zic.....  :oops:  (poti sa ceri informatii suplimentare de la altii de pe aici, se pare ca unii au cazut lesinati, incercind eroic sa reuseasca sa citeasca pina la capat cele scrise de mine) :P

[A CERB]

re. qvadratus sed on Imed

sunt om si nimic din ce e omenesc nu mi-e strain

Qvadratus, acest citat din Terentiu si mie mi-a fost mereu drag!

:roll: parka numele era terente...

[Qvadratus]

:ROFL  :ROFL  :ROFL

[rocsa]

cioran ar spune ca suicidul este supremul act de curaj,
si el era las?

Ziarul Online ť Actualitate


FILOZOFIA SINUCIDERII
Autor: (A.C.)


„Viata e o mizerie si nu merita traita!“ - acesta este motivul pentru care o adolescenta in varsta de 18 ani, din Gura Humorului, a incercat sa se sinucida. Pasionata de filozofie, M.B. era absorbita in ultima vreme de lucrarile lui Cioran si, intelegand gresit cele scrise de marele scriitor si filosof roman, a decis sa mearga pe alta lume, motiv pentru care a luat 20 de tablete de Hipazin, miercuri dupa-amiaza, cand parintii nu erau acasa. Pustoaica a fost gasita de mama sa, mai mult moarta decat vie, si a fost dusa cu salvarea la spital. Medicii au reusit cu greu sa ii salveze viata, spre nemultumirea tinerei. Medicii au recomandat parintilor sa o duca pe fata la psihiatru, aceasta demonstrand serioase probleme psihice.

originale vezi ca unii testeaza curajul pe pielea lor dupa ce au citit ce-ai scris tu

[originaltup]

muy spiritual
da' incearca sa citesti si mitul lui Sisif ca o alternativa la Cioran.